The clustering of early cases around the Huanan market reflects where the COVID-19 virus emerged, not just where testing looked

Over 15 hours of structured argument, two smart people marshalled epidemiological data, viral genetics, Bayesian inference, and institutional analysis to reach opposite conclusions. Two expert judges ruled decisively for zoonosis. Six independent Bay...

For context, the majority of virologists support the hypothesis that SARS-CoV-2 originated from a zoonotic spillover event that occurred in the vicinity of a wet market in Wuhan.

The market geography is striking. Michael Worobey's team mapped 156 early December 2019 cases and found non-random clustering around the Huanan Seafood Market. Crucially, even cases with no known market link clustered geographically around it, not ar...

Michael Worobey’s team at the University of Arizona mapped 156 early December 2019 COVID-19 cases in Wuhan using WHO data with estimated latitudes/longitudes, revealing a non-random clustering around the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market—specifically i...

The new map provides extra evidence for natural origins, showing several previously-unmentioned infected animals and animal vendors. A natural interpretation is that one part of the CCP was trying to cover this up and another part accidentally releas...

SARS-CoV-2, the virus behind COVID-19, led to a global pandemic from late 2019. Among the earliest confirmed patients, 49% had contact with the Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan. A separate full-length genome study showed 96.2% sequence similarity to th...

The epidemiology points to the Huanan market.

The problem is that argument doesn’t work — all evidence points to Covid starting around the same time the market outbreak started.

The first cases were associated with that market, not the lab. Detailed, sophisticated analysis supports that conclusion. Nothing supports the lab leak. The one—and only—piece of evidence for a lab leak is that there’s a lab in Wuhan.

Spatial analyses prove that the earliest known cases in December 2019 clustered tightly around the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market—even when explicitly excluding patients who worked or shopped there. Extensive genetic and environmental evidence place...

The maps identify specific stalls as having live animals infected with SARS-CoV-2 and vendors with antibodies to the virus - data China has never shared. Debarre finds the unconfirmed data credible because other details on the maps have been verified...

Analysis of Wuhan market map suggests China has not disclosed some of the earliest infections in animals and people.

actual scientific evidence has consistently pointed to the likelihood that COVID originated from a spillover event at a market in Wuhan.

As a group of experts assigned by the World Health Organization to examine Covid’s origins pointed out in a study last month, most of the peer-reviewed scientific evidence supports the theory that SARS-CoV-2 originated in a natural bat reservoir from...

Clearly the first outbreak occurred in and around the Huanan seafood market. The authors point out that 60% of these early cases, occurring in late 2019, had a direct connection to that market. But the virus could have been imported to that market. [...

Origines du SARS-CoV-2 : la zoonose reste l'hypothèse dominante, mais le dossier demeure incomplet. Le SAGO rappelle que les études sur le marché de Huanan constituent des éléments centraux du dossier scientifique.

Like all known human coronaviruses, SARS-CoV-2 originated from animals, most likely through wildlife sold at the Huanan Seafood Market, with bats serving as the deeper evolutionary reservoir. Since its emergence in humans, SARS-CoV-2 has repeatedly c...

The WeChat post contained two maps of stalls at the Huanan market. As Débarre documents, three additional market maps have appeared after the 2021 WHO-China mission report.

The COVID-19 pandemic began at the Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan, China. Examination of Figure 1 explains why this conclusion is so certain. Notice how half of the first 155 infections (December 2019) were clustered around the Huanan Market, with on...

More than 60% of the earliest confirmed COVID-19 cases in December 2019 had a direct or indirect link to a single location: the Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan. Environmental swabs taken from the market in January 2020 — after it had been closed and b...

More than 60% of early patients in December 2019 were epidemiologically linked to the market, and the simultaneous identification of two genetic lineages supports the idea that the virus had evolved in animals before its introduction to the market.

The Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market in Wuhan was also identified as a major hub for early transmission and spread. More than 60% of early patients in December 2019 were epidemiologically linked to the market, and the simultaneous identification of tw...

The Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market in Wuhan was also identified as a major hub for early transmission and spread. More than 60% of early patients in December 2019 were epidemiologically linked to the market, and the simultaneous identification of tw...

We also know that the Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan had a significant role in the early transmission and initial spread of the virus. These animals could have been the intermediate hosts that brought the virus to the market, leading to the early cas...

This map not only saved lives, it changed our understanding of disease and created a model used regularly by epidemiologists ever since. On the right is a similar map, this time of the first cases of the Covid-19 epidemic. Based on WHO data and publi...

Early COVID-19 cases clustered around the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market in Wuhan, China, with environmental sampling confirming virus presence in this location. Statistical analysis located the earliest human cases to specific market sections where...

Early COVID-19 cases clustered around the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market in Wuhan, China, with environmental sampling confirming virus presence in this location. Statistical analysis located the earliest human cases to specific market sections where...

However, peer-reviewed evidence supports the natural spillover theory. Firstly, a geospatial analysis found that early COVID-19 cases clustered around the Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan, China, where environmental samples, including those from animal...

She walks through the evidence pointing to the Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan, linked to the live animal trade, and emphasizes that the data we do have—environmental sampling, leaked Chinese CDC reports, WHO mission notes, and market maps—fit a zoono...

While a lab leak is possible, there has never been a shred of credible evidence to support conclusions that this is how the pandemic started. Meanwhile, there is compelling evidence (bordering on proof), that illegal animals being sold in a market in...

The truth? We don’t know for certain. While controversial, most scientists lean toward natural spillover based on viral genetics and epidemiology.

SAGO has clearly stated that no evidence suggests transmission of the virus to humans from frozen products at the Huanan Seafood Market, or any other market in Wuhan, in the critical late-2019 period.

Using a log-normal model to allow for a fourfold uncertainty in early counts, the data are about 10 times more likely under the market-origin scenario than the lab-origin scenario. My calculation was a deliberately simple likelihood comparison: given...

A key question for the lab-leak proponents is why the initial cases seem to cluster around the market, and there are no initial cases right around the lab itself. The market is across a river and a significant distance away from the lab, so these are...

A recent World Health Organization report presents the newest findings on the origins of COVID-19 from the Scientific Advisory Group for the Origins of Novel Pathogens (SAGO), an international body of more than 24 independent scientists. Drawing from...

The report omits or discounts the significant body of evidence linking early COVID-19 cases to the Huanan Seafood Market and documented zoonotic spillovers from wildlife to humans in other coronaviruses. It also doesn’t acknowledge the evolutionary d...

There is also abundant evidence that zoonosis is a likely explanation for how COVID-19 came about. The initial outbreak happened at the Huanan market in Wuhan, which had previously been reported to have conditions that were dangerous for viral transm...

The Huanan seafood market in Wuhan, China, played a significant role in the early transmission and amplification of the virus, with 60% of early cases in December 2019 that could be traced to the market or [people who] lived in close proximity to the...

There’s overwhelming scientific evidence that COVID emerged from an animal market in Wuhan, which was miles away from a virology lab.

Evidence of zoonosis has surfaced. That's in addition to the epidemiology data, which show the earliest COVID-19 cases cluster around the market, even those without a known connection to the market.

The White House launched a new web page promoting the controversial COVID-19 lab leak theory. Global health organizations and U.S. federal agencies have investigated the origin of the COVID-19 virus, and nearly all have agreed the virus wasn't geneti...

There is now substantial evidence pointing towards an animal origin for SARS-CoV-2.

For a very long time, after speaking with an enormous number of virologists and experts in related, adjacent fields — from the pandemic’s early days up through to the present — I’ve been someone who’s asserted that we can be certain that SARS-CoV-2, ...

There is no evidence that SARS-CoV-2, the virus behind the pandemic, was in any laboratory before the outbreak.

The White House on Friday launched a website deeming a laboratory leak as the "true" origin of the coronavirus, embracing a theory that remains divisive in the intelligence community and is opposed by many virologists.

Researchers strongly lean towards the theory that a person caught the virus from a wild animal at the Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan, China.

You get the feeling that they often start from the conclusion and develop their arguments backward.

Still, there’s plenty of reason why almost all epidemiologists and virologists I know believe that SARS-CoV-2 didn’t escape from the lab – but simply jumped to humans from animals on the ‘Huanen Wet Market’.

We have at least a half-dozen scientific papers in the best scientific journals, including Cell and Science, which convincingly demonstrate how the SARS-2 virus emerged through zoonotic spillover.

The clear preponderance of scientific evidence points clearly to the market, but scientists have an open mind and we will never know for sure.

The early cases cluster around the wet market. [...] So that and the verified presence of SARS-CoV-2 RNA samples in close proximity to animal DNA, is what we consider strong evidence. It's not proof. Proof is going to be extremely hard to obtain now,...

This paper has more evidence that supports the animal origin through the Huanan market.

The species present, and other data (such as where positive samples were collected) corroborates previous suppositions on the potential role of competent hosts as a potential origin of SARS-CoV2, and the role of the market as an initial source of vir...

Die aktuelle Studie über die molekulargenetischen Untersuchungen des Huanan-Tiermarktes in Wuhan bestätigt und erweitert Ergebnisse aus vorherigen Arbeiten, die bereits darauf hinwiesen, dass dort der Ursprung der Covid-19-Pandemie zu finden ist.

Die Daten liefern ein weiteres Indiz für eine Herkunft des Virus aus Tieren und eine Verbindung des Ursprungs mit dem Huanan-Markt.

We are seeing the DNA and RNA ghosts of these animals in the environmental samples, and some are in stalls where SARS-CoV-2 was found, too. This is what you would expect under a scenario in which there were infected animals in the market.

Researchers had found genetic evidence that raccoon dogs, an exotic species known to be susceptible to the virus, were among the animals for sale at the wet market in Wuhan, China, where the outbreak was first identified. Now that research has been u...

Scientists searching for the origins of Covid-19 have zeroed in on a short list of animals that possibly helped spread it to people, an effort they hope could allow them to trace the outbreak back to its source. Researchers analyzed genetic material ...

It’s a significant finding and this does shift the dial more in favor of an animal origin, [...] But it is not conclusive.

The species present, and other data (such as where positive samples were collected) corroborates previous suppositions on the potential role of competent hosts as a potential origin of SARS-CoV2, and the role of the market as an initial source of vir...

That is the biggest tell that this market wasn't just somewhere the virus eventually got to after spreading widely in Wuhan. There's very clear indications that that's where the jump successfully took place and human-to-human spread began.

This paper adds another layer to the accumulating evidence that all points to the same scenario: that infected animals were introduced into the market in mid- to late November 2019, which sparked the pandemic.

The zoonosis hypothesis proposes that SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes Covid-19, was naturally transmitted from an animal to one or more humans in a so-called wet market in Wuhan selling fresh produce, meat, fish, and live animals.

The evidence supports the scenario that two distinct ancestral lineages of SARS-CoV-2 jumped from animals into humans, and that the Huanan Seafood Market in Hubei Province, China, where wild animals were routinely present and slaughtered, was the epi...

The evidence supports the scenario that two distinct ancestral lineages of SARS-CoV-2 jumped from animals into humans, and that the Huanan Seafood Market in Hubei Province, China, where wild animals were routinely present and slaughtered, was the epi...

The evidence supports the scenario that two distinct ancestral lineages of SARS-CoV-2 jumped from animals into humans, and that the Huanan Seafood Market in Hubei Province, China, where wild animals were routinely present and slaughtered, was the epi...

The evidence supports the scenario that two distinct ancestral lineages of SARS-CoV-2 jumped from animals into humans, and that the Huanan Seafood Market in Hubei Province, China, where wild animals were routinely present and slaughtered, was the epi...

The evidence supports the scenario that two distinct ancestral lineages of SARS-CoV-2 jumped from animals into humans, and that the Huanan Seafood Market in Hubei Province, China, where wild animals were routinely present and slaughtered, was the epi...

The evidence supports the scenario that two distinct ancestral lineages of SARS-CoV-2 jumped from animals into humans, and that the Huanan Seafood Market in Hubei Province, China, where wild animals were routinely present and slaughtered, was the epi...

The evidence supports the scenario that two distinct ancestral lineages of SARS-CoV-2 jumped from animals into humans, and that the Huanan Seafood Market in Hubei Province, China, where wild animals were routinely present and slaughtered, was the epi...

The evidence supports the scenario that two distinct ancestral lineages of SARS-CoV-2 jumped from animals into humans, and that the Huanan Seafood Market in Hubei Province, China, where wild animals were routinely present and slaughtered, was the epi...

The evidence supports the scenario that two distinct ancestral lineages of SARS-CoV-2 jumped from animals into humans, and that the Huanan Seafood Market in Hubei Province, China, where wild animals were routinely present and slaughtered, was the epi...

The evidence supports the scenario that two distinct ancestral lineages of SARS-CoV-2 jumped from animals into humans, and that the Huanan Seafood Market in Hubei Province, China, where wild animals were routinely present and slaughtered, was the epi...

The evidence supports the scenario that two distinct ancestral lineages of SARS-CoV-2 jumped from animals into humans, and that the Huanan Seafood Market in Hubei Province, China, where wild animals were routinely present and slaughtered, was the epi...

The evidence supports the scenario that two distinct ancestral lineages of SARS-CoV-2 jumped from animals into humans, and that the Huanan Seafood Market in Hubei Province, China, where wild animals were routinely present and slaughtered, was the epi...

The evidence supports the scenario that two distinct ancestral lineages of SARS-CoV-2 jumped from animals into humans, and that the Huanan Seafood Market in Hubei Province, China, where wild animals were routinely present and slaughtered, was the epi...

The evidence supports the scenario that two distinct ancestral lineages of SARS-CoV-2 jumped from animals into humans, and that the Huanan Seafood Market in Hubei Province, China, where wild animals were routinely present and slaughtered, was the epi...

The evidence supports the scenario that two distinct ancestral lineages of SARS-CoV-2 jumped from animals into humans, and that the Huanan Seafood Market in Hubei Province, China, where wild animals were routinely present and slaughtered, was the epi...

The evidence supports the scenario that two distinct ancestral lineages of SARS-CoV-2 jumped from animals into humans, and that the Huanan Seafood Market in Hubei Province, China, where wild animals were routinely present and slaughtered, was the epi...

The evidence supports the scenario that two distinct ancestral lineages of SARS-CoV-2 jumped from animals into humans, and that the Huanan Seafood Market in Hubei Province, China, where wild animals were routinely present and slaughtered, was the epi...

The evidence supports the scenario that two distinct ancestral lineages of SARS-CoV-2 jumped from animals into humans, and that the Huanan Seafood Market in Hubei Province, China, where wild animals were routinely present and slaughtered, was the epi...

The evidence supports the scenario that two distinct ancestral lineages of SARS-CoV-2 jumped from animals into humans, and that the Huanan Seafood Market in Hubei Province, China, where wild animals were routinely present and slaughtered, was the epi...

The evidence supports the scenario that two distinct ancestral lineages of SARS-CoV-2 jumped from animals into humans, and that the Huanan Seafood Market in Hubei Province, China, where wild animals were routinely present and slaughtered, was the epi...

Based on the current available evidence, I believe the most plausible origin of SARS-CoV-2 is spillover from a bat to an intermediate animal, and then to a human. I further believe the available evidence indicates that this spillover happened natural...

They ignore or dismiss the abundant data pointing to the Huanan Market as the early epicenter of the COVID-19 pandemic. The significance of the fact that both SARS-CoV-2 lineage A and lineage B, as well as the DNA/RNA of raccoon dogs and civets were ...

There is no evidence that SARS-CoV-2 was man-made let alone that it escaped from a lab. All of the scientific data clearly points to a virus naturally circulating in horseshoe bats being transmitted to humans most probably via contact with infected l...

There is now abundant evidence that SARS-CoV-2 was an animal-to-human spillover event that occurred in the western section of the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market that housed several live animals that were susceptible to the virus. Indeed, the early c...

The first cluster of cases were restricted to the western section of a market that was selling live animals susceptible to the virus, exactly where you would have expected a spillover event to occur. The estimated chance that this pattern had occurre...

Raccoon dogs, bamboo rats, palm civets: these are just some of the animals whose DNA has been found in swabs taken from the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market in Wuhan, China, which has been linked to the origin of the COVID-19 pandemic. The swabs also ...

The bulk of the scientific evidence at this point supports a natural exposure at the market.

A new analysis of genetic sequences collected from the market shows that raccoon dogs being illegally sold at the venue could have been carrying and possibly shedding the virus at the end of 2019. It’s some of the strongest support yet, experts told ...

This really strengthens the case for a natural origin,

Many virologists believe compelling evidence points to an animal origin. Specifically, they conclude that the coronavirus most likely jumped from a caged wild animal into people at the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market, where a vast COVID-19 outbreak b...

A paper published in Science in July 2022 analyzed the available evidence and implicated the wildlife trade and the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market in Wuhan, China, as the site of the spillover. The earliest COVID-19 cases — even the ones with no kno...

This geographic proximity is consistent with a separate and subsequent origin of lineage A at the Huanan market in late-November 2019.

The Huanan market was the pandemic epicentre. From its origin there, the SARS-CoV-2 virus rapidly spread to other locations in Wuhan in early 2020 and then to the rest of the world.

An analysis of the geographic locations of the earliest known COVID cases – dating to December 2019 – revealed a strong clustering around the Huanan market. This was true not only for people who worked at or visited the market, but also for those who...

That is what the research heavily implies. We are not able to pinpoint the exact spillover event, the exact animal from which the virus crossed into humans, but there’s really no other explanation for what our analysis shows. And that is that there w...

We eventually figured out that it was better explained by multiple introductions than a single one. [...] This is so concordant with what we’ve seen with other epidemics that it makes any other scenario implausible, because you’d have to have an intr...

Both of these two studies really provide compelling evidence for the natural origin hypothesis. Since sampling an animal that was at the market is impossible, this is maybe as close to a smoking gun as you could get.

The Huanan Wholesale Seafood Market in Wuhan, China, was the epicenter [...] The study, published by Science Magazine, reinforces the theory [...] “significantly closer” [...]

Wild animals sold on the southwestern side of the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market in Wuhan were the most likely source of the COVID-19 outbreak, a team of 18 international scientists claim. While there's still no 'smoking gun', it seems there is a mo...

To test the hypothesis of the market as the pandemic’s epicenter, they obtained data from a range of sources. First, they used mapping tools to estimate the longitude and latitude locations of more than 150 of the earliest reported virus cases from D...

This week, an international team of scientists published two extensive, peer-reviewed papers in Science, offering the strongest evidence to date that the COVID-19 pandemic originated in animals at a market in Wuhan, China.

We have convincingly shown that the wild animal sales at the Huanan Market in Wuhan are implicated in the first human cases of the disease.

There has been broad agreement that the Huanan market was a place where early spread of the virus was amplified, but what our data show is that the market was also the early epicenter and very likely the place of emergence.

Rigorously combining all available evidence clearly demonstrates that the virus jumped at least twice from animals to humans at the Huanan market.

An international team of 18 researchers, including a scientist at University of Utah Health, have determined that the earliest cases of COVID-19 in humans arose at a wholesale fish market in Wuhan, China, in December 2019. They linked these cases to ...

The global COVID-19 pandemic likely started in the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market in Wuhan, China, according to a new study that looks at the distribution of the earliest known cases of SARS-CoV-2. The study was published simultaneously in the journ...

This study pinpoints the epicentre of the COVID-19 pandemic as the southwest corner of the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market in Wuhan, China where live wild animals were sold. The authors show that the earliest known COVID-19 cases from December 2019 a...

Two studies published in Science by Michael Worobey et al. and Jonathan Pekar et al. use complementary approaches – involving spatial and environmental analyses, as well as molecular analyses – to provide evidence that the Huanan market in Wuhan, Chi...

In a pair of related studies, published July 26, 2022 online via First Release in Science, researchers at University of California San Diego, with colleagues on four continents, show that the origin of the COVID-19 pandemic in 2019 was at the Huanan ...

The COVID-19-causing coronavirus, SARS-CoV-2, likely first spread to humans from animals in two separate transmission events in a Wuhan market in late November 2019, according to a pair of analyses by international teams co-led by Scripps Research sc...

can't explain the data. We're now as sure as we can be, based on the fragmentary evidence we do have, that this was a spillover event that happened in the market.

The results of three studies indicate that the first human-to-human transmission of the novel coronavirus occurred in the Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan.

They substantially move the needle on the origins in the direction of the market

The studies don't exclude other hypotheses entirely. But they absolutely are pushing it toward an animal origin.

Scientists have released three studies that reveal intriguing new clues about how the COVID-19 pandemic started. Two of the reports trace the outbreak back to a massive market that sold live animals, among other goods, in Wuhan, China, and a third su...

Two preprint studies posted Saturday offer further evidence that the coronavirus originated in animals and spread to humans in late 2019 at the Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan, China. One of the studies -- neither of which has been peer-reviewed or pu...

Worobey’s research suggests the Huanan market was the source of the initial outbreak and not just where the SARS-CoV-2 virus was amplified in a super-spreading event.

Sleuthing through health records and genomic and epidemiologic data from the earliest days of COVID-19, Worobey pieced together a detailed picture of the first crucial events that spiraled into the global pandemic. Through methodical analysis, he pro...

The report provided much more granular detail on early cases linked to the Huanan Market and importantly other wildlife markets in Wuhan. This is an inconvenient fact for many proponents of the ‘lab leak.’ Any theory on the origin of SARS-CoV-2 must ...

More than 60% of the earliest confirmed COVID-19 cases in December 2019 had a direct or indirect link to a single location: the Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan. Environmental swabs taken from the market in January 2020 — after it had been closed and b...

We also know that the Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan had a significant role in the early transmission and initial spread of the virus. These animals could have been the intermediate hosts that brought the virus to the market, leading to the early cas...

This geographic proximity is consistent with a separate and subsequent origin of lineage A at the Huanan market in late-November 2019.

In a related study (39), we show that the two earliest lineage A cases are more closely positioned geographically to the Huanan market than expected compared with other COVID-19 cases in Wuhan in early 2020, despite having no known association with t...

The presence of potential animal reservoirs, coupled with the timing of the lineage B primary case and the geographic clustering of early cases around the Huanan market, support the hypothesis that SARS-CoV-2 lineage B jumped into humans at the Huana...

Through late-2019 the Huanan market sold animals that are known to be susceptible to SARS-CoV-2 infection and capable of intra-species transmission.

The most probable explanation for the introduction of SARS-CoV-2 into humans involves zoonotic jumps from as-yet undetermined, intermediate host animals at the Huanan market.

The earliest unambiguous case of COVID-19, with symptom onset on 10 December and hospitalization on 16 December, was a seafood vendor at the Huanan market.

The earliest lineage A genomes from humans lack a direct epidemiological connection to the Huanan market, but were sampled from individuals who lived or had recently stayed close to the market.

The Chinese Huanan Seafood Market was an important hub for early spread.

The origins of the coronavirus pandemic remain contested; the evidence is incomplete.

The origin of COVID is still uncertain.

The origins of COVID-19 remain uncertain. A lab-associated incident is plausible; so is natural spillover. China’s obstruction has made the truth harder to establish, and scientific opinions vary.

The documents do not accuse Fauci of a crime, nor do they provide definitive proof supporting either the lab-leak theory or the natural-origin theory.

The best way to understand this discussion is that there is no definitive evidence either way. Certainty in either direction is just an implausible reading of the evidence.

The competing hypotheses on the origins of SARS-CoV-2 – the pathogen responsible for the COVID-19 pandemic – have been hotly debated in the scientific literature and popular media, especially with respect to the hypothesis that SARS-Cov-2 originated ...

We also know that the Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan had a significant role in the early transmission and initial spread of the virus. Metagenomic sequencing of environmental samples collected at the market has indicated that several wildlife species...

While available information is insufficient to definitively conclude the origins of SARS-CoV-2, the independent assessment of SARS-CoV-2 origins report (June 2025) published by the Scientific Advisory Group for the Origins of Novel Pathogens (SAGO) r...

Analyses of the earliest documented COVID-19 cases suggest a significant spatial association with the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market (HSM) in Wuhan. Multiple independent studies have reported that many of the earliest cases – particularly those with...